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In recent decades White House administrations have increased the numbers of “special advisors to the president” – more commonly called czars. Unlike cabinet appointments, czars don’t go through a confirmation process, their responsibilities are not clearly defined, and there is no guaranteed minimum level of transparency concerning their roles and amount of influence they have. President Obama is definitely not the first president to appoint czars. However, he is the first to appoint so many (around three dozen.) He’s also the first to appoint self-avowed communists, eugenicists, and other extreme radicals to official White House advisory roles. Over the next few weeks, I’m going to discuss some of the most extreme czars currently serving in the White House. As you read about each one, ask yourself the following four questions:

1. Am I comfortable not knowing the extent of this person’s influence on current policy initiatives, especially knowing that the czars are not accountable to anyone but the president?

2.
If this is what these czars have written, said, or endorsed in public, then what have they advocated behind closed doors?

3. Do I want these people making any decisions about my life?

4. The House health care bill establishes a “Health Choices Commissioner,” responsible for deciding what treatments should be given to patients. The HCC will be appointed by the president, confirmed by the Senate, and then only accountable to the president. Do I trust President Obama’s judgment about the type of person he will appoint to this position?

Shortly after taking office, B. Hussein Obama declared that politics would be removed from science as he lifted the ban on federal funding of embryonic stem cell research. Health and Human Services Secretary, Kathleen Sebelius has also explained that, regarding health care reform, “I think it would be wise to let science guide what the best health care package is.” Considering the views of the man Obama has selected as “Science Czar,” this is a very disturbing prospect.

John Holdren was appointed by Obama to Director of the White House Office of Science and Technology, Assistant to the President for Science and Technology, and Co-Chair of the President’s Advisors on Science and Technology. Informally, he’s the “Science Czar.” No matter what title you choose, it’s easy to see that he’s the main scientific authority for the Obama administration.

Concerns over Holdren’s views on “science” mainly come from a book he co-authored in 1977 titled, “Ecoscience: Population, Resources, Environment.” The book focuses on the issue of overpopulation, what Holdren and his two co-authors, Paul and Anne Ehrlich, see as the impending doom certain to destroy the planet in the following 23 years unless it’s immediately dealt with. In order to fight the “crisis” (a word often used in the Obama administration), Holdren argues for Draconian policies. Most Americans would be shocked that anyone supporting the actions proposed in this book has any influence on the President of the United States.

On page 837, the book states, “Indeed, it has been concluded that compulsory population-control laws, even including laws requiring compulsory abortions, could be sustained under the existing Constitution if the population crisis became sufficiently severe to endanger society.” This passage is extremely offensive for two reasons. Of course there is the horrific idea of forcing women to abort their children. However, perhaps even more disturbing, according to Holdren’s interpretation, there’s nothing in the Constitution to prevent the government from doing this. This man is the White House “scientific” authority in an administration that wants to remove politics from science.

“Ecoscience” also discusses “Involuntary Fertility Control.” The authors write on page 786-7, “A program of sterilizing women after their second or third child, despite the relatively greater difficulty of the operation than vasectomy, might be easier to implement than trying to sterilize men.” Getting more specific, the book goes on to ponder, “The development of a long-term sterilizing capsule that could be implanted under the skin and removed when pregnancy is desired opens additional possibilities for coercive fertility control. The capsule could be implanted at puberty and might be removable, with official permission, for a limited number of births.” The supposed “women’s rights” groups such as and NOW should be pitching a fit that Holdren is advising Obama. No one has heard a word from these groups. Imagine if a Bush advisor was merely caught checking out a copy of this book at the library. The streets would be illuminated with burning bras for months on end. Yet, Obama appoints the author of the book to advise him and there isn’t a peep of protest from feminist groups.

What forced abortion and sterilization policy would be complete without good old fashioned eugenics? On page 838 of the book, it explains, “If some individuals contribute to general social deterioration by overproducing children, and if the need is compelling, they can be required by law to exercise reproductive responsibility – just as they can be required to exercise responsibility in their resource-consumption patterns – providing they are not denied equal protection.” Apparently, according to them, as long as the Equal Protection Clause is considered, everything would be constitutional. (Notice how the Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade bill will require us to “exercise responsibility in [our] resource-consumption patterns?) Once again, we do not even now to what extent Holdren advises the Obama administration or the specific powers he holds.

These are just three passages from the nearly 1,000-page-book. The authors have plenty other hideous ideas such as placing an infertility drug in the water supply to sterilize general populations. Since his appointment, Holdren has insisted that “Ecoscience” is irrelevant because it was written 32 years ago and the population crisis never materialized. Apparently, he misses the entire point for concern. Regardless of when he wrote this book, at the time of its publishing, he was serious that these steps should be taken to avert a crisis that he was convinced was imminent. The Obama administration announces a new crisis every time we turn around. What “constitutional,” “scientific” (or final) solutions will Holdren propose next? It’s hard to know whether to be more terrified of B. Hussein Obama’s politics or his science. We should be thankful he’s not mixing the two.

(For more, visit www.donkeyridingcommies.com. Recent posts discuss the outrageous claims made upon Ted Kennedy's death, a Democrat Congresswoman's praise of Fidel Castro and Cuba's medical system, and plenty more with new posts added daily. Thanks for reading and come back next Tuesday for part two on Obama's czars.)

Comments

drewskie
# drewskie
Wednesday, September 02, 2009 5:00 PM
Do you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously when you refer to him as B. Hussein Obama?

I saw that and skipped down to post a comment and then close the page. I did not read your article. Good job convincing people of things.
Ron Hardin
# Ron Hardin
Wednesday, September 02, 2009 5:15 PM
Do you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously when you shriek at the middle name of the president? Give me a break and pull your head out of the "hope and change" clouds and look at the extremists occupying the White House.
Ron Hardin
# Ron Hardin
Wednesday, September 02, 2009 5:32 PM
Let me elaborate on my knee-jerk reaction to the Obama freaks so offended by the mere mention of Obama’s middle name that they can’t even bring themselves to read about the eugenicist currently advising the president on “science.” During the election, the Obama faithful championed his name as proof of his freshness and newness to the American political scene. They insisted that it would be an asset to negotiations with our enemies. They faithfully listened when Obama instructed them that the evil Republicans were going to use his name and appearance to scare people away from him. Yet, the only people during the election focused on Obama’s name and appearance (apparently, he’s also black, in case anyone missed it) were – you guessed it – Obama and his supporters. Now, as the former junior senator from Illinois packs his administration with communists and evil eugenicists like Holder, Obama supporters still stick to their fantasies that anyone critical of Obama has racist intentions. Too bad, these same Obama-followers have bought into their fearless leader’s infallibility so much that they look for any reason to dismiss paying attention to the trully evil people and their hideous intentions currently composing the Obama administration.

Nothing I've ever written about Obama is false - including his middle name. If Obama's middle name offends you more than Holdren's statements, then you are seriously disturbed and you're priorities are extremely screwed up.
Powerbottom69
# Powerbottom69
Wednesday, September 02, 2009 9:15 PM
Why does McKernan allow this conspiracy theory bullshit to continuously be published on his website? I know he caters to the low brow male, but not all low brow males are insane Alex Jonesophiles.

Holder is a eugenicist and a communist? Get a fucking grip Hardin, and step out of the echo chamber. You look and sound like a fucking lunatic when you write shit like this.
Powerbottom69
# Powerbottom69
Wednesday, September 02, 2009 9:26 PM
And by the way, you don't continuously and childishly refer to the president by his middle name because you just want to point it out in some sort of technical and innocent way. You refer to him as Hussein because that name sounds foreign and dangerous to most people that don't find themselves to be interested in global affairs, or aren't use to knowing people who have foreign sounding names. Also because it happens to be a popular middle eastern name, and the thought of the president being some sort of foreign, muslim man that has usurped the top leadership role in the country is always something that you and your psychotic, conspiratorial brethren undoubtedly think would be fantastic for the populace as a whole to think themselves.

You can call the president whatever name you would like, and god knows no one should be able to stop you. But just be honest with your intentions, please.

Until then go back to the Glen Beck circus hour and circle jerk with the rest of your crazy-guzzling bafoonaratzi. And leave the more rational section of American political discourse all its lonesome. You fucking crank.

cardsbadabing
# cardsbadabing
Wednesday, September 02, 2009 10:36 PM
I find it funny that Drewskie and Powerbottom don't even CARE to defend their beloved President but nitpick Ron's mention of Obama's middle name. Even after Ron pointed out that Obama shoved his own middle name down everyone's throats during the election.

I also find it funny that Ron didn't even mention Obama's middle name until about a third of the way down in the article. I guess the questions Ron posed and the basis of the article before the B. Hussein Obama reference make the entire joke of Obama's nominations irrelevant???

Who give's a rats ass about his middle name. That's not the basis of this story or any other of Ron's articles. If you Obama freaks cared to read all of Ron's articles and the comments, you'd see that what's going on.

Wake up people. Everyone called Bush by his middle initial, and the liberals called him far worse. At least back up Obama's policies and why they will "work" or shut the F up. America is up in arms, and not just Republicans.
drewskie
# drewskie
Wednesday, September 02, 2009 11:07 PM
You don't have to read the entire article to realize the author makes no attempts at objectivity. Like the poster above mentioned, it's clear when you see he's calling him B. Hussein Obama what his intentions are: create discomfort (hopefully even fear) in the reader due to the President having an uncommon (in the US) middle name.

But I read the article anyway, at your behest. It didn't really tell me anything of interest, save the line: "These are just three passages from the nearly 1,000-page-book." If I was simple-minded, I would take the three passages and decide that I knew everything I needed to know about the author's beliefs and character. And if I was simple-minded AND deceitful, I would use those three passages to scare other people into thinking the President is going to force women to have abortions.

It's the same way that people claimed they knew all they needed to know because of Obama's pastor, and frankly, some of the demonization Palin received for a remark here and there.

I'm not defending the ideas this man wrote 30 years ago. But there is no doubt they are taken out of context and written in an academic setting. One of the great things about academia is the freedom (at least after tenure) to research and write about all kinds of ideas, even if they are radical.

I wish McKernan would hire writers that are less Limbaugh-esque.
Ron Hardin
# Ron Hardin
Wednesday, September 02, 2009 11:23 PM
Conspiracy theory?!?! Since when did quoting the exact words from a book written by a man currently advising the Oval Office about science equal a conspiracy theory?!? Come off of it you freakin' liberal Obama freaks. Seriously, if you read everything in the artcle above and the most infuriating thing you saw was the gratutious use of Obama's middle name then your priorities are extremely screwed up.

Anyone who has read my articles before knows exactly why I use Obama's middle name and it has nothing to do with the "racist" motivations you projected onto me (seriously, get your heads out of your asses) - because the only people who get stirred up over it are the die-hard Obama worshippers. That's the complete reason. If you Obama freaks wouldn't act like babies every time you see the word "Hussein," I probably would have never used it to begin with.

However, now it serves a much better point to show how out-out-touch the Obama-faithful are. Holdren is a eugenecist - his words about limiting births from members of "less desirable" people who contribute to "general social deterioration" - these words put him right in the middle of the eugenecs movement. Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood was also big on the same logic used by Holdren. This man has no business advising on any type of policy and the American people shoudl be appalled that B. Hussein even places a bit of value in any of Holdren's advice.

Pull your panties out of their knots and take some responsibility over the man that you voted for. If you support views like Holdren (don't accuse me of taking him out of context because the only context his statements could be excused were if they were included in a book titled, "The Most Evil and Inhumane Policies That Could Only be Promoted by a Ruthless Despotic Regime." None of his statements came from that context. Instead, they were policies that Holdren and his buddies were advocating to face a "crisis" that never transposed - yet that didn't stop him from still idolizing Harrison Brown - a "distinguished member" of the International Eugenics Society.

Obama's advisor did say and promote these actions and the best you can do is pitch a hissy fit because I mentioned Obama's middle name?!

You have shown that you will let your morallity be skewed if the message is right. Until any of the Obama freaks admits that Holdren's statements are goulish and should he should immediately be forced out of the White House, you liberals have no moral ground to stand on. Get your priorities in order and then I might act like a give a damn about your supposed insults. Spread same words to your friends. Take a flying leap until you start showing some sense of moral repulsion at the extremist, eugenic, and communist ideas being pushed for by these "czars" with no accountability or transparency.

With voters like these guys, we're screwed as a nation from here on out...
Rattler555
# Rattler555
Thursday, September 03, 2009 8:14 AM
Drewskie,

You said,"If I was simple-minded, I would take the 3 passages and decide that I knew everything I needed to know about the authors beliefs and charascter."

How is that any different than you reading one line of Ron's atricle and seeing the Presidents middle name and automatically quit reading and assume you know everything about him and his beliefs?

Are you admitting your hipocracy here? If so, then I give you props. That would put you one step ahead of your fellow lefty moonbats on the road to common sense. If you aren't admitting your hipocracy, then congrats, you have just received your phd in stupidity and can now join the rest of your moonbats in making our country look like a fucking joke to the rest of the world.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Thursday, September 03, 2009 11:35 AM
As far as using B. Hussein Obama I'm not sure why it would bother anybody. Rush tried to scare people referring to him this way. Americans showed they were not as dumb as Rush believed them to be when they voted for him anyway. I'm proud America inched a little closer to accepting people that are maybe a little different then they are. I think you should try using Barry and see how your readers react.

Now for the issue of the czars. Nobody can be sure if Obama has assembled more advisors than any other president. Obama is just the first to make public so many advisors. Do you believe the American Enterprise Institute didn't take on the role of advisor in regards to the invasion of Iraq? Bush's advisors went by the title of CEO. Presidents should surround themselves with people who have expertise to offer not people trying to line their pockets. Not to say Obama is not surrounded by big business looking to get bigger but I think we are better off now than before.

You are quoting from a text book, not an editorial. He studied a potential problem and presented his findings to students for further study. Yea, ‘another one of them there smart guys’ Republicans have grown to hate so much. The quotes you chose to use from this text book are not advocating the use of these policies. Are you trying to convince people this man is going to advice the President to begin using these tactics to fight population growth? Personally I don't know enough about Holdren to say he is not but I highly doubt it. If you want to prove this man is the horrific monster you want to portray him as you need better material.
Ron Hardin
# Ron Hardin
Thursday, September 03, 2009 1:11 PM
Fred,
All I can say is – wow, really?!?!

Actually it is very easy to see how many more czars Obama has created compared to every other president in the history of the US. Each office must be created in order to be filled and he has surpassed every one of his predecessors.

I don’t think I need any more evidence to prove that John Holdren is a monster. These are his own words and your logic of excusing him because it was a textbook used to teach others makes these recommendations even worse. This man argued that the current US Constitution would allow government to force abortions on the population. He’s now advising the freakin’ president!!! He has never renounced his "solutions" advocated in Ecoscience. What the hell don’t you get about how wrong that is?!?!

Obama-freaks can explain away anything concerning their “Chosen One.” During the debates, Obama told us to judge him by who he surrounds himself with. So far, he’s got a eugenicist he selected to surround him. Next week, we’ll take a look at some more of the other extremists he’s chosen.

Anyone who doesn’t get thrills running up their legs when they hear Obama speak should be very disturbed both at who’s in the White House and how far Obama’s die-hard supporters will go to excuse these people.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Thursday, September 03, 2009 1:58 PM
Ron,
Yes Really! :)
You didn't address presidents of the past using advisors with no official titles. The main difference is that Obama is putting these people out there to be judged. Call it bigger government all you want but understand his predecessors did the same thing only in secret. If it's anarchy you want come out and say it.

Please explain to me how Holdren pointing out that these thing could be accomplished under the constitution is him advocating their use. I am uneducated and need help understanding. If this guy is really planning on wiping out the undesirables I want to understand the methods. I could make the same statement in warning of their potential use. The man is not saying 'I think women should be sterilized if population grows out of control.' He is saying the US government, if faced with out of control population growth, could potentially use these devastating tactics. It's like scientists that develop weapons. How often do these men want to see their destructive potential unleashed? Do you think the subject should go unstudied? Perhaps you have some recommendations. Who told you that the 1000 book "focuses on the issue of overpopulation, what Holdren and his two co-authors, Paul and Anne Ehrlich, see as the impending doom certain to destroy the planet in the following 23 years unless it’s immediately dealt with"? I can't knock you for not reading a 1000 page textbook but maybe I can for presenting such a stark summary.

I am not trying to excuse anyone. I'm trying to point out errors in your logic. I guess next week you will be writing that the "Green Jobs Czar" is pushing a takeover of the country by Native Americans. Your byline should read Glenn Beck.
Ron Hardin
# Ron Hardin
Thursday, September 03, 2009 2:12 PM
Fred-
When Holdren wrote Ecoscience, he was addressing the impending doom of the planet from overpopulation. He and the coauthors predicted that unless extreme measures were taken, the overpopulation problem would wipe out the planet by the end of the 21st century. (That was 9 years ago.) Since they were preaching impending doom, yes these were recommendations on how to avert disaster. So, yes, these were actual recommendations on how to deal with a problem that the authors felt would wipe out humanity over the following 23 years after the book was written. Thanks for passing along whatever nonsense Huffington Post or DailyKos decided to use to explain away this man, but take a freakin' look at this man's actual words and then answer for yourself the four questions from the beginning of the article.

The Obama freaks could care less what their idol does in the White House. Obama has created more "special advisory" offices than anyone else and it's not just "righwing whackos" concerned over this. On top of it, he also has plenty of other unidentified advisors going in and out of the White House but the "most transparent administration in history" won't release the log books. (I know, I know, "Bush did it first!" Save the feined outrage.) David Axelrod is still receiving money from his consulting firm that is advising pharma companies. (Since Axelrod stepped down after the election, his son took over - gee I'm sure there's no relationship there.) Tom Daschle, who couldn't pass the Senate confirmation hearing is still in and out of the Oval Office advising on health care reform - even though Dashle is being paid heavily by the insurance industry for "consulting." Yes, this sure is the "most transparent administration in history."

By the way, Glenn Beck has done some great work on these czars, especially about Van Jones. However, nothing in this artlce above came from his show - I'll cite it when it does. However, it is a sad statement when only one single person in the nation seems concerned with who is occupying the White House.

As I said before, if the Obama-heads read the above article and say to themselves, "Well, who hasn't advocated forcing abortions on the undesirables?" and then only question the use of Obama's middle name, you guys need to reevaluate your priorities because they are extremely screwed up. Don't you think the White House should answer questions about Holdren's past works on overpopulation and give an answer about why he was appointed regardless of it?
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Thursday, September 03, 2009 3:15 PM
It’s a given you are brighter than I. You have a column here and I’m simply a reader. Did you see my explanation on Huffington Post? I saw your piece on Glenn Beck 2 or 3 weeks ago only his main focus was on Rahm’s brother. But he did offer the same things about Holdren that you did. It appears you took what Glenn said waited a couple weeks hoping people would forget and attempted to pass it off as your own work. You wrote an article based on writings in a book you didn’t read.

You ruined any credibility you might have had by saying Glenn Beck did great work. Since I also have no credibility I will continue to respond to your response. You really don’t understand that he is an entertainer? An entertainer, nothing more. He knows how scared Americans get and is cashing in on it. Here is where conservatives do what liberals do when people knock Obama, they counter-blame. “Because it wasn’t on MSNBC or CNN it has no credibility boo-hoo? Chris Mathews is crazy too boo-hoo.” This could be true, I don’t know I only take the time to watch Beck because he is funny, especially the fake crying bit. How can you say only a single person is concerned with who is inhabiting the White House? Beck isn’t even the biggest star spouting this, don’t forget Rush and the dittoheads(and the racists).

Don’t you don’t understand Academia? These people are posed or pose questions themselves and answer them. They put together their answers in the form of books, pamphlets and in this case a text book. At least that is what I have read. Maybe I don’t understand it. Sometimes these folks do have ulterior motives, usually they are to make lots and lots of money. I don't believe this guy is looking to do away with undesirables, you might be confusing him with Reagan. The textbook industry is a corrupt one. That is maybe where you should be nailing this guy.

Special advisory offices are a good thing, especially when you bring people in with an opposing view of your own. You can't say they are not accountable to anyone because they are certainly not above the law. I know they had them in Nazi Germany, but all US presidents have as well, again they are just called by other names. Please if it is anarchy that you want just say so. Ok I have to mention Bush, this is where he was a major failure. He only accepted those who were on board with his plan. He only wanted Czars that agreed with him. Not exactly a special advisor, but a real advisor, Erik Shinseki is a hero, David Patreus is as William Fallon said a chicken shit yes man. Most of Bush’s yes men were on board with 100,000s of people dying for a couple bucks. If Obama has assembled a team of yes men to spread the wealth, we will all survive at least.

I see no reason why the white house shouldn’t release visitor logs. I don’t want lobbyist in the oval office. Why are these things not the focus of your article? You instead decide to take something, twist it like a pretzel and fling it out there. Maybe you though Holdren was a sexier story. Perhaps it was because Glenn Beck didn’t do a show on it.
Ron Hardin
# Ron Hardin
Thursday, September 03, 2009 4:02 PM
You have one thing correct, Fred. You aren't smart. Accusing me of plagiarizing Glenn Beck is asinine. You say you aren't merely regurgitating the Obama liberal Obama apologists yet you boldly accuse me of plagiarism. Excuse me for telling you to screw yourself. All of your little posturing fails to address the cold hard fact that this man advocated the actions included in the above article. Let's talk about some more passages in Ecoscience since you seem so intent on claiming that I took three passages out of context. (I still can't imagine one single context that these would be excusable - unless they were contained in a chapter titled, "The Most Hideous Actions Possible.")

ON page 838 of Ecoscience, Holdren and friends write, "In today's world, however, the number of children in a family is a matter of profound public concern. The law regulates other highly personal matters. For example, no one may lawfully have more than one spouse at a time. Why should the law not be able to prevent a person from having more than two children?"

Yes, that's a real advocate of freedom. I believe we were appalled when China instituted similar laws. But, hey why not have this nutbar in the White House?

We also have a section titled, "Toward a Planetary Regime." Some highlights of this section include "The planetary regime might be given responsibility for determining the optimum population for the world and for each region and for abitrating various contries' shares...the regime would have the power to enforce the agreed limits."

That's another idea right in line with American values and sovereignty. Who would enforce the population limits set by the planetary regime? Hold on, Holder has an answer for that too, in the same section Ecoscience states, "...security might be provided by an armed international organization, a global analogue of a police force...partial surrender of sovereignty to an international organization."

Gee, I must have been blind to just pull a few quotes out of context to paint a picture of this guy as a monster.

Come off of your Obama infatuation. Instead of addressing the questions of how this guy came to hold a position in the White House, you are more intent to attack me. (By the way, give me an example where Obama has appointed anyone who disagrees with him. That's another asinine statement.) The White House should answer for Holdren's statements in Ecoscience and similar comments he made supporting the overpopulation problem in speeches as recently as 2007 where he spoke before the American Association for the Advancement of Science Conference. In this speech, he once again spoke about his reverence for Harrison Brown, the man who started the overpopulation scare-mongering with his book "The Challenge of Man's Future" where Brown painted the same doomsday scenario as the one painted in Ecoscience.

Why don't you actually address the exact words from the current "science czar" instead of accusing me of plagiarism? Don't people deserve answers from the Obama administration on what this guy is doing in the White House? Pull your head out of the "hope and change" clouds and take a sniff of reality - of course you refused to do it during the election so I seriously doubt you will now.

Read Holdren's actual words and answer the freakin' question of why this man should ever be allowed to influence policy?!? These czars are unaccountable, they don't go through a Senate confirmation and the president has no obligation to disclose what their responsibilities are. I know, I know, B. Hussein Obama has been soooo transparent so far but I'm not the a-hole here for asking the questions on this. The real a-holes are the ones telling everyone to shut up, fix your tin foil hats, and love Obama. (Try to guess which camp you fit into.)
Ron Hardin
# Ron Hardin
Thursday, September 03, 2009 4:32 PM
By the way, just to borrow Obama's phrase, here's a "teachable moment" about the reaction to Holdren's own words. Just like they did with opponents of the health care takeover, Obama-ites don't debate the contents and facts of the issue, they attack whoever delivers the message. While I didn't use Glenn Beck discussing Holdren this week, you can bet I'll eventually get around to some of his research on Van Jones. Why would I use Beck? Because he's the only person really investigating this.

The problem I have with Holdren are the actual words he has written. Attack me all you want but remember, the bulk of this article is composed of direct quotes from the man currently advising the White House on science and technology. How in the hell did he wind up in office? The White House refuses to acknowledge any of these questions. Instead, they act like Fred here and attack those asking the questions. Tell me again, who is avoiding the issues and relying on personal attacks? I can't be the only one concerned about people like Holdren holding office.
Ron Hardin
# Ron Hardin
Thursday, September 03, 2009 6:00 PM
In case anyone missed the news today, "green jobs czar" Van Jones was (is?) a member of the "9/11 Truthers" who believed the Bush administration intentionally caused the attacks of 9/11. The news broke around noon today at the blog GatewayPundit.com, Glenn Beck discussed it at 4:00 CST, and by 6:00 PM, the White House still has not commented. Did Obama know about Jones' signature on the 9/11 Truther statement? If so, how did he allow him in office? If not, how did that slip by?

Go ahead, attack me for mentioning it. Just answer the questions on how Jones got an office in the White House.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Thursday, September 03, 2009 6:24 PM
Ron,
Here is a terrific example of what you are doing with the writings of Holdren, “of course you refused to do it during the election so I seriously doubt you will now”, assuming. You assume I voted for Obama. I’m trying to get a couple of things across to you about your plagiarized article. You assume that Holdren supports these policies. I’m not sure why you don’t understand that I have addressed the things you take issue with You do not understand the world he worked in. In the world of intellects serious issues are thrown out for serious discussion. They come up with possible scenarios and how a government could react to such scenarios. I told you this earlier. You never offered an answer to what you solution would be to out of control population growth. It’s a scary question isn’t it? Somebody has to study it. Regan’s advisors told him to ignore aids, it would simply do away with the undesirables. Woops, bad example to support my point. Did you ever have to write a position paper in school to support something you didn’t necessarily believe in? Some people make a living doing exactly that. You never heard the word eugenicists until Beck threw it out there.
1. This I can’t give a straight yes/no to. I realize this has been and always will be part of this Representative Democracy. That’s why it’s important to vote for people you trust to do the least worst.
2. You are only offering a couple of sentences from a 1000 page text, impossible to answer. I’m not reading a text book on Ecoscience. I’m reading Tropic of Cancer and have enough trouble with it.
3. Decisions in my life? Clarify please. If you mean do I want them to decide what I eat on a daily basis, absolutely not. Would I support these guys FORCING my insurance company to treat me better, absolutely.
4.Your statement sounded ridiculous so I researched. I conducted a simple Bing search. My research claims that your claim comes from a phony email chain letter. Here is what politifact.com says about it The bill says that a Health Choices commissioner will run the exchange, and that he or she will make sure that insurers are offering basic benefits and adhering to the regulations. Individuals then choose their own plan from offerings on the exchange. The health commissioner does not "decide health benefits for you." Ok, maybe it is a biased liberal site, not sure but maybe. So I added foxnews to the search term. THE TWEET: Pg 42 of HC Bill – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose UR HC Benefits 4 you. U have no choice! FALSE. The Commissioner establishes plan standards, works out the operation of the Exchange, and administers affordability credits. He doesn’t choose what plan an individual must choose and therefore what benefits an individual will have. As with many parts of this bill, the standards concern what must be offered at a minimum. I cant find where it says they will decide what treatments I get. But maybe it is part of the plan, right. I don’t want that guy doing that for me.

Every president in the history of the US has had massive staffs. Most of which do not face senate confirmation. I can’t believe you are naïve enough to buy into Glenn Beck’s BS. He is not the only person that has researched these people. He is the only one with goners (I’d like to say lack of integrity) big enough to spin it the way he is. I understand you don’t have a staff of researchers nor access that a major publication has. But you are presenting this as an investigative piece. As if you are uncovering a monstrous conspiracy. C’mon dude.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Thursday, September 03, 2009 6:38 PM
Attack!!
Do you have a problem with him questioning the president? Especially when you consider the great loss of life.
I just read on Atlantic Monthly's website that he signed on to a letter that called for an investigation. I don't believe that Bush had anything to do with it. However, it has been discussed within our government to carry out terrorist attacks as an excuse to attack Cuba. Kennedy shot them down.
Ron Hardin
# Ron Hardin
Thursday, September 03, 2009 6:52 PM
Look Fred, apparently you have no problem with the idea that a man who believes that the current Constitution would allow a government to force abortions on its population. To make it sound like a position paper assigned to a college freshman is less than intellectually dishonest. This man shopped his ideas, published a book on them, and went on the public speaking circuit backing his ideas up. This work was one of his crowning works gaining him notoriety in academia. Therefore, the question is still relevant of; why in the hell is this man in any capacity to advise the President of the United States on policy? Sure, keep accusing me of plagiarism or anything else that makes you happy. But don't think for a second that this shouldn't be answered by the White House.

By the way, you don't want to get into a discussion with me about eugenics in the liberal movement. Trust me, it didn't take a story from Glenn Beck for me to become familiar with the concept. If you understood the roots of Planned Parenthood in the eugenic movement which Planned Parenthood's founder, Margaret Sanger (yes, the same woman praised by Hillary Clinton not long ago) was a prominent figure, you would see how Holdren's comments aren't to be taken lightly, especially his ideas about limiting the reproduction of the "undesirables" of society.

I've never posed myself as the person who discovered Holdren's background. However, it's an important subject that I think plenty of people should be aware of, especially considering the amount of power this administration is looking to take over the private sector.

But hey, who am I but some plagiarizing blow-hard, right? I mean, I just created all of Holdren's quotes out of thin air. Besides, I must watch Fox News, Glenn Beck, or some other media source that labels me a whack-job.

Obviously, you have no problem with people like Holdren influencing policy. You claim that he's just writing a paper he doesn't believe in, even though he's given speeches until, at least 2007, talking about the population crisis. But sure, the coerced abortions and placing sterilents in the water system are just his "suggestions" planning for a crisis - gee, we don't hear about any new crisis every other day do we?

I think I proved my own point about the camp you belong in. Instead of asking why this freakin' guy is in the White House, you'd rather make fantastic claims that "well, he didn't really mean what he wrote." Give me a break.

Go on, insult me, tell me how simple I am and how I don't have a single original idea - at least be honest with yourself about the guy in the White House serving next to another fruitloop who was a member of the 9/11 Truthers. (Oh, wait, I think they mentioned that on Fox News so it can't be true. There I go, plagiarizing again.)

Thanks for the comments but I'm not going to keep a back-and-forth up that denies and explains away what Holdren has actually written. The burden of proof is on the a-hole who wrote it, not the people asking about it.
Ron Hardin
# Ron Hardin
Thursday, September 03, 2009 6:54 PM
If you have no problem with a member of the 9/11 Truthers being in the White House, you've just proven how out of touch you are. You can't reason with insane.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:30 PM
If you fear this could happen you better recognize the Constitution does not prevent it. Go ahead and live in your fairy tale land where the Constitution will protect you from everything. College freshman? Ask law students and clerks if they do this. I can’t believe you never heard of this. I can guarantee that nowhere in that book does he say he wants to see these tactics in use. I challenge you to provide that. The growing population is a real concern. Do you deny this? Who is going to deal with it and how? Should we just ignore it and let God sort it out? There are plenty of Republicans out there that offer that. Science ventures into some scary places.
If Beck was not your source, then who? You didn’t “uncover” this yourself. Do you represent the opinion of Insidestl.com and its owners? I didn't see a disclaimer.

I didn’t say your information about Holdren was a lie, just twisted. You are ready to bash Jones over questioning the president while at the same time questioning the president. I can’t imagine his questions are any wackier than yours. I don’t know much about the 9/11 truthers except that they challenged the president to provide information. You got “birthers” in congress, why not “truthers” in the white house. Truther certainly sounds a lot better, this is politics isn’t it.

I'm sorry if it seems that I am aiming to insult you. I'm not, I'm challenging you. You are an editorialist with a comment section below the article. You do not reveal how you came across the infomation and I seen Mr. Beck do the same story. I'd like to know, if you didn't get it from Beck who else is presenting this argument. Question your leaders, challenge your journalists, the most important word in the English language is why.
Could you clean up your claim about the “Health Choices Commissioner,”? Thanks dude. Keep on Rockin' in the FREE WORLD.
Ron Hardin
# Ron Hardin
Thursday, September 03, 2009 8:11 PM
You're right. I'm the niave one. How could I have ever thought that statements written in a book would have any reflection on the author? Gee, you're right, I'm the moron here. Who doesn't see the overpopulation problem? (Even though population growth has slowed and never reached the heights forecasted by "sages" like Holdren. Good thing we didn't jump on his recommendations when he was making them.) Yes, you are right though, who hasn't advocated coerced abortion and eugenics at some point in their lives? Come on, you must have more common sense than that. No one can be that dense.

Don't accuse me of living in a fantasy world and say that the US Constitution allows for forced abortions. The same privacy clause that abortion proponents cite constantly would effectively end that idea. However, if you deny the right to privacy argued in Roe v. Wade, we could just rely on the First Amendment since abortion is an issue very deeply rooted in religious beliefs, the Fourth Amendment's "right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects" Fifth Amendment's Due Process Clause, Eighth Amendment (coerced abortion could very well be considered "cruel and unusual punishment" for breaking a law against over-breeding), and there could even be a case made on the Ninth Amendment since a law concerning family size could very well be construed as "deny[ing] or disparag[ing] other [rights] retained by the people." Hell, we might even be able to argue on the basis of the Tenth Amendment since the federal government was never granted authority over limiting family sizes. So, while you say there is nothing in the Constitution forbidding it, I'd say that at least six amendments in the Bill of Rights say otherwise. Got any other keen ideas, genius?

Once again, there's no use arguing with someone as far-out there as Fred. Obviously, he's content to twist reality to fit whatever view he wants to believe. Some ideas are so asinine that they don't deserve arguing, I'd say our boy Fred here just crossed that threshold. For the rest of the thinking world, however, shouldn't we be worried about Holdren and people like him in office?
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Thursday, September 03, 2009 8:40 PM
I wasn’t looking for you to prove the constitution could prevent it. I misread your first statement in your last response. For some reason I thought you had concluded that the constitution does not prevent it, but that is Holdren. If this guy see’s how it can be constitutional you better believe it’s at least possible. This guy isn’t dumb like me.
You say his recommendations. Show me where he is recommending anything. Again I’m shocked you are not familiar with these types of texts. Your twisted presentation of academic writings is not even clever.
I’m far-out and you are the one who believe the Obama White House is preparing to do away with undesirables. I’m far-out and you are the Beck sycophant.
There are so many places where you can pick at Obama, this one is just a stupid waste of time. This is the first of your articles that I have read. I look forward to reading more. Are you going to edit the thing about the Health Commissioner? C’mon dude I don’t want you losing any more credibility.
cardsbadabing
# cardsbadabing
Thursday, September 03, 2009 11:40 PM
I haven't logged in for awhile and Ron beat me to the punch- China has a population control measure and people around the world think it's a disgusting, terrible thing. And now people like Fred and Drewskie feel that someone who has published a book, profited from it, went on speaking engagements around the country defending his idea that this is ok? To be one of Obama's right hand men??? Unbelievable.

Academia. The mere word cracks me up. Makes me think of a bunch of professors sitting around sipping cognac philosphizing about how to solve the worlds problems. The problem with a lot (not all) academians is that they haven't worked in the real world in so many years that they've lost touch with what's really going on. Why do you think new grads have such problems getting good jobs? Because their professors don't teach what's needed in the real world. If they're lucky they get on the job training and figure it out, then move up the ranks or start their own companies.

But I guess Obama will address this in his upcoming fireside chat with the kids on education.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Thursday, September 03, 2009 11:54 PM
Cardsbadabing,
It seems you are anti-capitalist. Why shouldn’t someone profit from such extensive work. Show me where this man urges the use of the controls he studied. I can’t believe this type of writing is new to you. You and Ron both, maybe it’s not as rare as I thought.

Why does the word Academia crack you up? A bunch of professors sitting around philosophizing about the world’s problems is a good thing. This type of thing occurs on both sides of the aisle. The shitty thing is that the right side too often advocates the use of military force to further the American agenda in their discussions. Reading, writing, thinking and understanding is great stuff. Grads have a hard time getting jobs because they have no experience dude. Most professions are going to require extensive on the job training. I would be interested to hear what type of work you do after reading your view on education.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Friday, September 04, 2009 12:50 AM
Ronbo! I just did a quick google search, "john holdren confirmation". Sorry big guy, Holdren's position did require Senate confirmation. You do not quite come out and outright say Holdren was not confirmed but you certainly imply it. I'm reading on foxnews.com that his confirmation was unanimous.

Here is a response from his co-authors -
Shocked at the mischaracterization of their work, Holdren's coauthors, Anne and Paul Ehrlich, released this statement earlier in the summer: "We were not then, never have been, and are not now 'advocates' of the Draconian measures for population limitation described -- but not recommended -- in the book's 60-plus small-type pages cataloging the full spectrum of population policies[.]" They had merely described measures "that, at the time, had either been tried in some country or analyzed by some commentator."

According to wikipedia George W. Bush had more czar jobs(35) than Obama does (32). It is true Obama could surpass the 35 before he is out of office. Understand though that number doesn't mean 35 different people, it means 35 positions, 45 different people were employed as czars under W.

Dude, don't make me start calling you Ron "Ann Coultor" Hardin.
Ron Hardin
# Ron Hardin
Friday, September 04, 2009 11:38 AM
As I have always done when I am wrong (I know, it hardly happens but no one is perfect) I admit it. Holdren did go through a Senate confirmation for one of the three positions he was appointed to. However, there are plenty of czars that do not have to appear before Congress - such as the "green jobs czar" Van Jones (soon to be renamed "Bush Cooperated in 9/11 Attacks Czar." Thanks for bringing that to my attention, Fred. I'll be more careful as I discuss the czars in the future. (There's still plenty to worry about.)

Yes, Holdren was appointed to two other positions which he was not confirmed for. Also, the accusation that the president's czar's actions have no accountability to anyone other than the president still rings true.

As far as commenting on Wikipedia artifcles - I don't rely on "sources" that are freely changed along with the news and editorials of the day.

As for the co-authors' statement about Ecoscience. It isn't surprising that they down-play the book's message once one of their own is appointed to a position to influence policy.
cardsbadabing
# cardsbadabing
Friday, September 04, 2009 12:06 PM
Fred, Capitalism is what makes this country so great and the world go around. Your argument against Holdren is now even more comical. First you said he was strictly academia; now you say good for him for traveling around like a snake oil salesman capitalizing on his eugenic "academia ideas." Isn't that a conflict of interest? I mean this guy clearly isn't just a professor sitting around shooting the breeze- he's published and has spent years preaching this garbage, and now influences the President and our country?!?

As far as Education, that's one thing Obama gets right. Kids need a better education, starting in grade school.

Regarding college, unless you studied for a profession in the medical field or went to a trade school, you don't get much real world or hands on training. I've been out of undergrad for 13 years and recently went back to work on my MBA.

I'm a partner in a local recruiting company and handle sales, recruiting, client relations, HR, operations, budgets, etc- the whole nine yards. Companies hire me to find them the best talent available. They don't want new grads because they don't have real world experience or business smarts- just textbook experience. I see it every fricking day, from corporate giants, medium sized companies, small businesses and non-profits.

I can't help to think that most colleges are laggards in what they teach, in ideas, technology, etc. Professors who only teach, not work, are also part of the problem. They just don't have a grasp on what the real world, the business world, wants.

I'm not saying do away w/ higher ed, don't get me wrong. I'm just tying in my experience to this numbskull Holdren





FredNorris
# FredNorris
Friday, September 04, 2009 12:09 PM
Hi Ron. I look forward to an edited version of the article. That is a version of the article stripped of falsehoods. Dude, I think it's clear you better read the book before coming to any conclusions about it. Don't you think Lincoln had folks that studied the impact of the abolishment of slavery on the economy of the Union? Don’t you think there study showed it would be a heavy burden for the economy to bear? Don’t you think they still recommended the ending of slavery despite these economic impacts? I could go to your website and pick out a couple lines that make you look like a violent revolutionary. I know this isn’t a full time gig for you. But according to McKernan a lot of people are on this site. Be responsible and do your research.
Any comments on the following?
“For the first time in history, records of White House visitors will be made available to the public on an ongoing basis,”
Thanks Bud
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Friday, September 04, 2009 12:24 PM
CardsDude,
Show me where I said he was strictly academia. There are not too many people out there not trying to become rich, especially in and around the White House. Also explain to me why academics are not supposed to profit from there work. You are calling a text book snake oil? I don’t know that this guy was out plugging this book, shoving it down their throats. I also am not familiar with text book sales methods. You really should read the book before coming to such harsh conclusions. I can pick and choose lines from about any book to make it pertain to anything I want. I’m not sure why anybody is on board with Beck. You don’t see his method? Make wild accusations and challenge the person to disprove.

Of course new grads don’t have real world experience, that’s exactly what I said. Even college graduates start out in entry level positions. Education is proof that you have the ability to learn. It is proof that you set out to do something and complete it. College graduates are forced to think. College grads are better writers. I am not a college graduate. I have the real world experience. I want to be a college graduate.
Ron Hardin
# Ron Hardin
Friday, September 04, 2009 1:38 PM
Fred-
I've corrected the only misstatement made in this entire article. The main idea that these czars are not accountable to anyone but the president is still very much true. Even ultra-liberal Senator Robert Byrd has protested Obama's accumulation of czars as a direct assault on the destruction of checks and balances.

The news that the White House is giving partial access to visitor logs just broke today. (I know I'm pretty cool but I'm not clairvoyant.) However, as with everything this administration does, we'll see how much their actions truly meet their words.

As for the Ehrlich's claims that the recommendations in the book comes from a small, 60-page section. The quotes cited in the article and throughout the comments section span over 200 pages (almost 1/5 of the book.) For the authors to suggest that they were just passing along the ideas of others is pure nonsense however you might try to justify it. Ecoscience was the equivalent to Holdren and the Ehrlich's fight against overpopulation that Al Gore's movie, An Inconvenient Truth was to his fight against global warming. (And the "problems" seem to be just as nonsensical.) No amount of "rationalizing" changes that fact.

As far as the Health Commissioner goes, it's a subject that can occupy several weeks of articles on its own. However, the position that would be created would grant the Health Commissioner the power to determine what services and treatments would have to be covered by health insurance policies. At the same time, the government wants to establish a "public option" to "compete" with the private insurers. The problem is that the "public option" will dictate prices paid to health care providers making it impossible for private insurers to compete. (When a market participant has the ability to set the rules, doesn't have to abide by the same tax and capital reserve laws, and has the unlimited ability to tax the nation to make up for financial shortfalls, it's not a fair competitor.) One of the biggest problems with the Health Commissioner deciding what services are provided is that abortion very well could become a required benefit in every policy. (I know, I know, it's not in there now but NARAL and Planned Parenthood are supporting HR 3200. The vagueness used in drafting the bill leaves the door open for just about anything imaginable.) Democrats blocked amendments to the House bill which would have explicitly prohibited abortion coverage - even several moderate Democrats are threatening to vote against the bill unless this is corrected. Many of the same Democrats also blocked an amendment which would have denied coverage to illegal aliens. After being confirmed, the Health Commissioner will have almost unilateral power to decide what treatments are permissible to be covered for certain groups of patients and after private health insurance companies are driven out of business, guess who will be determining the allowable treatments for everyone on the public option? (which won't be very "optional" any more because there won't be any other insurance provider out there.)

The Lewin Group's study showed at least 88 million people will be kicked off of their private coverage if HR 3200 is passed. Millions more will follow as the private insurers are driven out of the market because government will price the public option's premiums and payments below market value making it impossible for private insurers to compete. The Health Commissioner then will be making decisions such as the ones Rahm Emanuel's brother, Ezekiel Emanuel discussed where he said that health care for the very young, very old, and people incapable of becoming a "full productive member of society such as people with dementia should not be guaranteed access to health care. As costs rise, like the Congressional Budget Office has said they certainly will, the Health Commissioner's job will be to allocate fewer and fewer resources to cover an expanding pool of patients.

Taking that Obama has put someone like Holdren whose book advocates coerced abortions and sterilizing women through chemicals in the drinking water in the event of a "crisis" - I'm not exactly too comfortable with who he would select to handle health care allocation since we know full-well that a "crisis" will eventually arise where there are too many patients needing medical care from too small of a pool of health care resources.

The only misstatement in the article was that Holdren did not sit before the Senate before taking his office. He was confirmed to his position in the White House Office of Science and Technology. His other two appointments required no confirmation and he is still only accountable to the president - just like the other czars. We can see that you have no problem with this guy. Hell, you might even agree with him but to come out saying that he didn't mean anything he wrote is beyond gullible. The reality of the situation is that this guy wrote about this stuff for a crisis that he innacurrately claimed was going to destroy the planet before the year 2000. (Once again, good thing we didn't follow his advice or we would have looked pretty stupid - and very inhumane.)

Some czars did sit before a Senate panel before taking office, however many did not. Van Jones, was not confirmed. Just as a reminder, Jones is the self-avowed communist who was a member of the 9/11 Truthers who weren't just "questioning the government" like Fred states, they explicitly blamed the Bush administration for coordinating the attacks on 9/11. Jones signed a statement agreeing that he believed that the United States government played an active role in shooting down airplanes and bombing the World Trade Center and Pentagon which resulted in the deaths of 3,000 innocent Americans. Now Fred, maybe you have no problem with that but thank God most people aren't as dense as you. Today, Jones is denying he signed the list of the "100 Most Influential 9/11 Truthers" even though the list shows him as, I believe, it was 46th. (I might not have the exact position correct.) Jones' denial is a flat-out lie just like Obama's denial that he wasn't aware that his minister for 20 years was a raving anti-Semitic, anti-American, racist lunatic. A spokesperson for the 9/11 Truthers adamantly states that no one's name was added without their explicit permission.

The irresponsiblity comes from people who constantly make excuses for the vast expanse of power this administration is seeking and the radical people they are appointing to positions to influence the president.

As much as I'd love to continue about this, I'll be away from the internet over the holiday weekend. Thanks for reading and I'll be back Tuesday with more on the czars.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Friday, September 04, 2009 2:24 PM
Frightening to be called gullible by a Disciple of Beck. You assume I'm a deomcrat because I refute wacky claims made by you. You still have not shown me where Holdren advocates any of this. I can’t believe how dense you are. If you read the book you could highlight his advocating the exact opposite of what you say he is advocating. Emanual’s brother was involved in the same type of work. Read the book. Admit you are lazy. If you read all of what these guys write you might understand. You did no research outside of the Glenn Beck show. Read these peoples work and get back to me.
I have told you more than once every president has these staffs that are not confirmed, that are only accountable to their boss. If you would have done your research you would have seen that Obama is second to only GW in number of czar positions. None of these czars are above the law. Maybe we should start confirming privates in the military. Remember Abu Graihb? Talk about a monstrous effect on the country. Do you think the president and his cabinet can do all of the leg work? YOU ARE DENSE DUDE.
Where did the health care debate come from? I found a misstatement about the Health Commissioner and you are going to say it isn’t a misstatement even though it is a misstatement. C’mon Dude.

Prove to me Jones’s was a 9/11 truther. All I could find was a claim that he signed a document asking Elliot Spitzer to investigate the claims made by the organization. You have a problem with him doing this is the same as people calling you crazy for making the claims that Holdren is a eugenicist. I don’t necessarily support the 9/11 truthers, but they are doing exactly what you and Glenn Beck do. Make an outlandish accusation and challenge the guy to disprove.
I feel sorry for you dude. As long as you fail to understand what the murdering rapist Glenn Beck says is for entertainment only, you are going to be scared for eternity.
I went back to skim some of your older articles. Is Cardsbadabing you, or is there really a Ron Hardin sycophant.
I'm pretty much locked down, no holiday for me and I'm always on the net. Feel free to get back to me with your research.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Friday, September 04, 2009 2:44 PM
Eva Patterson -
Beck has said repeatedly that Van is some kind of a mysterious "czar," accountable to no one but the President. A simple Internet search shows that this claim is false. A March 10, 2009, press release announced that Van was hired by the Chair of the White House Council on Environmental Quality - to work on her staff as a "special advisor."
In other words, Van is within the normal White House chain of command, reporting to an office confirmed by the United States Senate, just like most White House staffers. Media outlets sometimes use the "czar" shorthand. But the facts show that Van has no mysterious role or extra-constitutional powers.
Beck has implied on two occasions that Van Jones and other Obama appointees were not vetted by the FBI. False. I was interviewed in my own office by an FBI agent, dutifully vetting Van. Yet another fabrication on the part of Mr. Beck.
Beck also claims that Van has somehow gained control over $500 million in Green Jobs Act funding and can hand out millions of dollars at his whim. Again, that is patently ridiculous.

cardsbadabing
# cardsbadabing
Friday, September 04, 2009 2:52 PM
First off, I'm not Ron. I just happen to agree w/ a lot of what he says, but I do disagree on some issues and have written about it.

Secondly, I don't watch Glen Beck. Maybe once a week I'll be in my car during lunch and catch 5 minutes of Rush but I don't follow him religiously. I think he's right on some issues and wrong on others.

Thirdly, Fred, you need to take a spoonful of your own medicine. People flocked to Michael Moore when he released his movies. Many of the same people watch Bill Maher on HBO. At least Maher points out when democrats are wrong.
Ron Hardin
# Ron Hardin
Friday, September 04, 2009 3:01 PM
How does signing onto the petition created by 9/11 Truthers mean he's not one of them? Here's an exact quote from the group's mission statement that guided all of the questions on the petition. From their mission statement:

"OUR MISSION
TO EXPOSE the official lies and cover-up surrounding the events of September 11th, 2001 in a way that inspires the people to overcome denial and understand the truth; namely, that elements within the US government and covert policy apparatus must have orchestrated or participated in the execution of the attacks for these to have happened in the way that they did."

In case you can't read the words in front of your face, they accuse the government of ORCHESTRATING or PARTICIPATING in the attacks of 9/11. That's 100% whacko and if you don't see a problem with it, then that speaks volumes about you. You make another asanine assuption about my familiarity with Holdren's work. However, what does it matter because you think people who disagree with you are, what did you call Glenn Beck, a "murderer and rapist?" Yeah, that's rational.

In fact, sense you want to play the cat-and-mouse game of, "well, sure Jones signed onto the petition but that didn't mean he supported it," it shows the irrationality of your assertions that "Holdren just wrote Ecoscience, it doesn't mean he supported anything in it." Come off of it. I know Obama supporters are comfortable and used to saying that Obama constantly said and did stuff (hang out with Bill Ayers and sit in Wright's church) even though he didn't really buy into anything they stood for but people in the real world see how utterly nonsensical those claims are.

You wanted an explaination of the "false claim" about the Health Commissioner and I answered your questions. Just as you flatly stated that there was NOTHING IN THE CONSTITUTION TO PREVENT coerced abortions and I provided you with that answer. (Even though you now claim that you didn't make the claim.)

Look, I know you think you're really keen and sophisticated. I'm sure you laugh at the ignorant masses who "just don't get it." However, it's pretty obvious that you are completely disconnected from any sense of reality. Perhaps you arguments would impress a third-rate college professor at a second-rate college, but they don't fly in actually discussing subjects that have the potential to extremely affect everyone's lives.

No one has said that the czars weren't vetted by the FBI. (I know I haven't which is who I'm most concerned about.) However, the czars are not accountable to anyone but the president and there is no standard required level of transparency regarding their duties, influence, or even pay. Even liberal Senator Robert Byrd has stated his concern about this. (Trust me, I'm not a fan of Byrds but it's not just "rightwing whackos" concerned about the czars.)

If you want to debate Glenn Beck, then send him an email but there's nothing in this article from Glenn Beck. Got that? The source for this article are the direct quotes from Holdren's own book. The book has been widely reported about since Holdren's appointment, that's how I ran across it.

You're a one-trick pony buddy and it's gotten very old very quick. You're only relying on the same tricks Obama and his friends have used since he first came on the political scene in Chicago. Any criticism is always deflected into a character attack on anyone making the criticism. Just as you've done here, you completely dismiss any of Holdren's own words and actions (same with Van Jones) and blame the person quoting them for the reprehensible actions. Yes, you are dense and very condescending. No, you are not brilliantly enlightened. Your arguments completely defy logic in an attempt to avoid the issue.

As far as comments on my articles, all of my comments are under my own name. You're accusation is completely false, just like your sense of reality.

With that said, I am signing off for the weekend. Once again, thanks for reading and I'll be back on Tuesday with more on the czars. Have fun listening to Fred try to turn the issue back on me.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Friday, September 04, 2009 3:07 PM
How is that my own medicine? I am arguing Michael Moore's points? I thought the Columbine movie was boring and haven't watched anymore. I have lived overseas for a while now and have not had HBO since I was a kid. However, the last time I was in STL I did see Maher at the Fox.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Friday, September 04, 2009 3:29 PM
Glenn Beck has been accused of raping and murdering a girl. He has not proven he didn’t and hasn’t even denied it. Don’t you see that is exactly what he does to others? And you are a wannabe. He told Keith Ellison to prove he wasn't with the enemy. You took my bait. I showed you exactly what you and Beck do. Make outlandish accusations and play the cat and mouse game.
According to you Holdren made the claim there was nothing in the consitution to stop coerced abortions. I was making the point that if he can see how it is constitutional you better believe it's possible. You didn't fix you false claim of the Health Commissioner.

Dude how do I come off as someone who thinks they are sophisticated? I've gone from being a soldier to working along side soldiers.If I wanted to be "sophisticated" I would be back in STL as a full-time student. I want to learn, see the real world first hand. I don't care what people think about me.
I laugh at people that take conspiracy theories seriously. When I get on a net where your site isn't blocked I'm going to take some quotes to prove you are calling for an armed revolution in the US.
I'm disconnected from reality and you believe the White house is partaking in eugenics. WTF? Van Jones doesn't directly work for the president. You still haven't addressed the fact that every president in history has had huge staffs that are not accountable to anyone except their boss and the law. Another thing every administration does is accept input from people in the industry who stand to profit from their recommendations. Do something on that! I'm not just against rightwing wackos, I'm against all wackos posting articles on legit sites.

How did you come across the works of John Holdren? Are you going to tell me it wasn't the Beck show? You will not and cannot show me where Holdren calls for use of the tactics he studied. I am not necessarily a fan of these guys that you bash. I'm just against you posting these twisted things without first doing the research. This isn't your personal website. The site gets massive amounts of traffic. As we have seen from the Beck sycophants alot of people believe everything they hear.
cardsbadabing
# cardsbadabing
Friday, September 04, 2009 3:51 PM
Fred, the last line in your comment above is exactly what I was referring to w/ Michael Moore and Bill Maher. "As we have seen from the Beck sycophants alot of people believe everything they hear."

The majority of the media outside of Fox News is as liberal is it gets. They don't question anything Obama says, it's just gospel. Again, using your quote, that is a point that guys like Ron, Beck, and Rush are trying to make- don't believe everything you hear. Fortunately or unfortunately they are the ones w/ nads big enough to stand up and shout while other politicians from both parties walk away from controversy w/ their tails between their legs for the fear of losing votes in the next election.

Btw, I don't agree w/ hardly anything that Bill Maher says but the smug little b@stard is pretty funny, and I do enjoy his show.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Friday, September 04, 2009 4:03 PM
Mr. Cards,
Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, etc. do not fucking care about anything except lining their pockets. Again they make outlandish accusations and tell the person to disprove it (I'm not aware of Maher doing this). It's ridiculous. Is Glenn going to deny raping and murdering that poor little girl? This lady told me Rush Limbaugh has herpes.
I absolutley agree that leaders should be questioned. Real questions though. Before you can call a man a eugenecists, read what he as wrote. Not 1 or 2 lines. If you go to Mr. Hardin's site you can pull out pieces, line them up and poof Mr. Hardin is calling for armed revolution. This is the oldest trick in the book. Don't fall for it. Beck does it people love it. Beck just came on. He says Barry Obama has 37 czars I read on the net 32.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Friday, September 04, 2009 10:15 PM
After reading donkeyridingcommies.com it is obvious that Ron is a militant. Perhaps he is even planning on attempting to carry out a coup.

"There is a pressing need for a revolution in today’s America."
"...the use of physical force..."
"The battle which is looming can... be fought hand-to-hand."
All of these quotes can be found on Ron's site. He's operating out in the open. Don't say I didn't warn everyone.
afanger
# afanger
Saturday, September 05, 2009 10:16 AM
Liberals tend to do a really good job of sidetracking debates and making personal attacks. This article is about a creep working aside our president. Yes, it is scary. Good article.
cardsbadabing
# cardsbadabing
Saturday, September 05, 2009 12:05 PM
Fred, you're right, Rush, Beck, Michael Moore, Stewart, Maher, etc get paid to spout off. That's capitalism- find a niche and profit from it. These guys are being paid by their networks and advertisers. They AREN'T being paid by US tax dollars or have a direct line to the President. That's quite a big difference.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Saturday, September 05, 2009 12:30 PM
Not sure what you are getting at. Are there people with a direct line to the white house that are taking 1000 page academic works, pulling out 5 lines and presenting them anyway they want? I think you and Ron (i dont check my facts) Hardin think that I will defend any actions by Barry "I need to find a graceful exit from Afghanistan" Obama. This is not true. I'm just anti Beck(and sycophants like Ron) type commentary on their own spin. I know the republican party (and you as stated earlier) is anti-academics but it is why America became what it did. John Holdren is intelligent and took on an incredible potential problem studied it and presented his findings. He was not advocating eradication of sects of the populations. I've explained this many times in these comments. Yourself and Ron refuse to stop and think. It's alot easier to read a couple lines and sexier to think the white house is staging a revolution.
afanger
# afanger
Saturday, September 05, 2009 12:48 PM
lets worry about population control when/if it gets to be a problem. high population is a good problem. much better than worrying about the human species going extinct. lets worry about overpopulation when we get there, and not kill people now in order to prevent it. how do you prepare for something like that anyway? its not like all of the sudden we will run out of land for people to inhabit. if overpopulation happens it would be slow and gradual. population control is inhumane, and to write a book about it suggests that he is an immoral piece of shit, like any other pro choice slimeball out there.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Saturday, September 05, 2009 1:00 PM
Wow afanger! Dude you are out there. I don't think you could get Ron, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, your priest or even Cardsbadabing to go along with that one. We will deal with it when it is upon us? Can we count on god to save us? You don't see when it is upon us it is too late? The first measures that will be taken will not be anything like the lines Ron has picked out to quote. Like you I haven't read the book. I will not come to any drastic conclusions from it. But the first measures I would put in place if out of control population growth was on the horizon would be economic. Having kids is subsidized all over the world. I have to believe the book discuses economic measures. You are right we will never get to the point where there isn't enough room for people to stand. Long before that many people will die in the war for fresh water. We have already seen a war over water in the Middle East. Science goes down some scary roads but the alternative is to pray and let god do what he does. Are you down on scientist that create destructive weapons of war? Despite what George Bush will have you believe science is important.
afanger
# afanger
Saturday, September 05, 2009 1:12 PM
yeah, i am the one that is "out there". i condemn killing humans to avoid overpopulation and i'm crazy. sure, science is important. fresh water is important. we already have a shortage of fresh water in the world, should we kill people and encourage more abortions? totally ridiculous. you don't kill humans so that humans don't die, it doesn't make sense. we need to adapt and find new ways to live with more people. i personally don't think we will ever be dangerously overpopulated. none of us know what the future holds. i think the strongest will survive, natural disasters, cancer, wars, etc.... will eliminate the made up crisis that is overpopulation. lets use science for good, not to find ways to justify killing people to save people. assinine.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Saturday, September 05, 2009 1:33 PM
Dude nobody has yet to show me where anybody is advocating euthanasia and forced abortions. AGAIN for the 1 billionth or so time you are reading 5 lines from a 1000 page book. The 5 lines you are reading are not even advocating the use of the tactics discussed. They are just presenting the tactics. Not a perfect example, but do you think George Orwell was for the population controls he presented?
And since you are so anti women's rights I want to commend you for adopting so many unwanted babies.
Is it really fair to come to such immense conclusions off a book you have not read? You are letting Glenn Beck make up your mind for you.
afanger
# afanger
Saturday, September 05, 2009 1:42 PM
i haven't seen one episode of glen beck in my life. maybe i should catch one so i can understand him a little better.

and as for women's rights. b.s. women don't have the right to kill the baby they created. they gave up that right when they opened their legs. and in the rare case that they were raped and impregnated, adoption is a humane option. murder (abortion) is not an option, unless you are immoral. allowing women the choice is doing them a disservice. women shouldn't have the option to terminate their babies life. and giving them this option is unfair to women. anything else is just an excuse.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Saturday, September 05, 2009 2:02 PM
I doesn't matter if you have watched Beck. Ron Hardin is presenting Beck's material to you here.

Giving people options is unfair to them? Again you are out there. I can see an argument that it's unfair to the unborn child. Is the morning after pill an abortion? Should it be illegal? Also I want to again commend you for adopting all of the unwanted kids that you have. You are doing a great thing. If all the kids you adopted had stayed with the mothers that don't want them they probably would have grown up to be monsters that commit heinous crimes.
afanger
# afanger
Saturday, September 05, 2009 2:11 PM
there are couples everywhere waiting in line to adopt a baby. and yes, its unfair to the woman to give her the choice for an abortion. no excuses are justified. its unfair that women have to even contemplate a decision.

keep saying "i'm out there".... hope if makes you feel better.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Saturday, September 05, 2009 2:43 PM
Again it's unfair to give a choice? Sounds like Communist propaganda to me. If there are so many of these couples out there why do orphanages exist? I do commend you again for taking the lead on this issue and adopting all of those kids.
Check out what i found on the Nation Right to Live website. http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/ASMF/asmf4.html
"Suction aspiration, or "vacuum curettage," is the abortion technique used in most first trimester abortions"
"A powerful suction tube with a sharp cutting edge is inserted into the womb through the dilated cervix. The suction dismembers the body of the developing baby and tears the placenta from the wall of the uterus, sucking blood, amniotic fluid, placental tissue, and fetal parts[10] into a collection bottle."
My goodness gracious. Does Jesus know that the National Right to Live is condoning and even instructing people on how to carry out abortions?
afanger
# afanger
Saturday, September 05, 2009 3:18 PM
i couldn't care less what the "national right to live" has on their website.

i didn't know being anti abortion made me a communist?? keep reaching.

aren't you glad your mom didn't brutally suction you out of her womb and let you die?
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Saturday, September 05, 2009 3:22 PM
anti abortion is not communist, anti choice is.
did you miss my point in posting the quotes from the site? not saying you did but you just might have.
yes, love you mommy. my mom also wanted a child.
imagine a world were you couldn't experience the joys of sex unless you wanted a child.
afanger
# afanger
Saturday, September 05, 2009 3:38 PM
you are aware that there are preventative measures that can be taken in order to prevent pregnancy, right? pregnancy is a gift, not a choice.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Saturday, September 05, 2009 3:48 PM
Oh, see earlier you said the women make the choice when they spread their legs.
What about when the preventative measure fail? What about the far far far right (the author of the above article) that is against teaching these things?
And why should a woman that was raped have to go through the physical pain of pregnancy?
This is far off the topic of the article and my objection to it. Still nobody has shown me where this man or anyone else is advocating the practice of eugenics.
afanger
# afanger
Saturday, September 05, 2009 4:31 PM
i doubt ron is anti birth control, etc... but he can speak for himself.

God forbid a woman have to go through the pain of child labor in order to create a life (prevent abortion/murder) keep making excuses.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Saturday, September 05, 2009 4:35 PM
Is this Pat Robertson?
You really don't see a problem with a women having to carry the baby of her rapist and go through a potentially deadly process? Perhaps this is you Sarah Palin. If it is you Sarah I would love to gag and fuck you. Let me know if you're interested.
afanger
# afanger
Saturday, September 05, 2009 5:18 PM
nope, i see a problem with murder. haven't i made that clear? you have clearly justified it for yourself.

ahh, sarah palin. the topic that libs just can't get over. i can't wait to see the response if she resurfaces. high quality entertainment.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Saturday, September 05, 2009 5:30 PM
i don't pay much attention to libs i guess that's why i haven't heard much about her lately.last i heard was when she resigned. they said she was probably getting a divorce. i was excited by that, like i said i'd like to gag and fuck her, hoping to create some life with her.
and she has the same view on abortion as you. you might be the only two. it's good we have good people like you that adopt all these children. i forgot how many children have you adopted?
what if the woman dies in child birth. is the rapist then also a murderer. and if abortions were illegal and the raped woman died in child birth would the state be guilty of murdering an innocent woman? i see your big issue is morality. i'm happy for you. you survived the last 8 years despite an incredibly immoral administration. if morality was as important to me i certainly would have died from the stress the anger at bush's immoral ways would have brought me.
afanger
# afanger
Saturday, September 05, 2009 6:34 PM
if you made abortion illegal, less people would have irresponsible sex. resulting in less unwanted pregnancies, less sexually transmitted diseases, and an overall better society.
and as for your ridiculous example, if a woman is raped, has the baby, and dies during childbirth, it is a horrible tragedy. since less than 1% of births end in medically preventable maternal death, your example is totally ridiculous. that number doesn't even include the low percentage of a rapes that lead to pregnancy. this is the same example all pro choice slimeballs use when trying to justify the murder of an innocent baby. keep making excuses dirtbag.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Saturday, September 05, 2009 7:07 PM
i was going to stop with you because you come from the pat robertson camp of ridiculousness. I have offered no excuses. Just real world possibilities. Have you ever heard of someone deciding to go ahead and have sex because they think "hey if i get pregnant, no biggie, abortion is legal". You are I-N-S-A-N-E. Ridiculous example? Tell that to the family of the woman. Wow that's insensitive dude. 1% is a huge number when you are talking about life and death, huge. Forget 1%, 1 is too many people. You tout the importance of life while at the same time burying a poor woman. And when the raped mother is dead will you take the baby?I'm for letting a woman decide. It's her body, not yours. You might say well the baby's body is also at stake. Fine, take the baby out of the mother, we'll do everything we can to keep it alive (tax payer money that you republicans hate letting slip away)if it survives we will give it to you or Pat Robertson. I guess you haven't adopted any unwanted babies b/c you are avoiding that question. How many unwanted children grow up to be murderers? It's weird how republicans are only for government involvement in circumstances where they personally want it. How about we leave it to the oh so highly touted free market. If you are ever on trial for murder I will be a witness in your insanity plea dude. I'm there for ya. If your doctor recommends abortion ABORT ABORT ABORT.
afanger
# afanger
Sunday, September 06, 2009 11:11 AM
"Have you ever heard of someone deciding to go ahead and have sex because they think "hey if i get pregnant, no biggie, abortion is legal"." - really stupid question - "consequences" make people more responsible. thats common sense

"Wow that's insensitive dude. 1% is a huge number when you are talking about life and death, huge. Forget 1%, 1 is too many people. You tout the importance of life while at the same time burying a poor woman. And when the raped mother is dead will you take the baby?" - yeah, right, i am insensitive. you CHOOSE murder, i choose life. i choose the incredibly rare death from NATURAL causes, you MURDER millions of babies. but i am the insensitive one. i never said save the baby over the mother. i think most/all people would say "save the mother" when/if presented the options. i have never read a story about a mother dying and baby living when the mother is impregnated by rape. run on sentance = ridiculous circumstance. you aren't worth the research. you are welcome to give me an example or statistic. google away.

"I'm for letting a woman decide. It's her body, not yours. You might say well the baby's body is also at stake. Fine, take the baby out of the mother, we'll do everything we can to keep it alive (tax payer money that you republicans hate letting slip away)" - another really stupid comment.

"if it survives we will give it to you or Pat Robertson. I guess you haven't adopted any unwanted babies b/c you are avoiding that question." - i have an adopted sister, and my wife and i would like to adopt a baby some day when the timing is right. i know there is a waiting list for a white baby, and it is pretty easy to adopt a "minority" baby or special needs baby. i would prefer a minority baby. at this point that is about all i know about adoption.

"How many unwanted children grow up to be murderers?" - oh, ok... so lets just kill them so they don't have a chance.

"It's weird how republicans are only for government involvement in circumstances where they personally want it. How about we leave it to the oh so highly touted free market. If you are ever on trial for murder I will be a witness in your insanity plea dude. I'm there for ya. If your doctor recommends abortion ABORT ABORT ABORT" - this last paragraph takes the cake. what the fuck are you talking about?

keep making excuses.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Sunday, September 06, 2009 11:30 AM
I'll explain. Republicans are for free will when it suits them. Are you going to deny that? Ronald Reagan for some reason was anti helmet law. He said people should make their own choice. On the subject of marijuana for some reason he was anti free choice. Which is more dangerous smoking a J or riding around sans helmet? George W., like Clinton, was all for letting banks do whatever the hell they wanted. But for some reason, like you, he was anti free choice when it came to women's reproductive rights.
I Still have yet to make an excuse. Yes if you think anyone in the history of the world has decided to go ahead and have sex because they knew that abortions were legal you are I-N-S-A-N-E. I have no reason to do any research. I'm not trying to prove I'm more intelligent than you. I'm anti people like you imposing their views on others. I would be super surprised if you were not pro death penalty. Open up your mind, trying taking a look at the world through the eyes of another.
I guess there is no reasoning with communist bent on controlling women. I hope you are not married, if you are I feel deeply for your wife.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Sunday, September 06, 2009 11:54 AM
I also want to thank you Mr. Fanger for helping me prove my initial point. If you recall you were opposed to studying the impact of over population. Why were you? Your main issues were with the immoral possibilities and the fact that it wasn't a problem. However, you have obviously took the time to study the immoral act of aborting a fetus. You then go on to point out that pregnancy due to rape wasn't a problem. How else would you know that if you had not studied it? So you are calling Mr. Holdren evil for studying abortions while at the same time studying abortions. Sounds like a republican to me.
cardsbadabing
# cardsbadabing
Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:19 PM
OK, this is getting ridiculous and off topic. But since we're the only 3 commenting I'll add in my two cents.

Morally I don't believe in abortion. I do have a hard time with someone telling a women she doesn't have a choice, even though I don't personally believe in it.

I've written on here numerous times that abortion should be taken out of politics. The right and left both cling to it senselessly. I don't know anyone who would be against it if a women was raped, save a few on the far religious right. In my opinion, the religious right is a minority of the the Republican party, just as tree hugging PETA freaks are a minority of liberal democrats. They pretty much cancel each other out.

As far as adoption, I'm all for it. I'm not married yet but I would absolutely do it if my future wife and I were unable to conceive.

If I recall from previous articles and comments, I believe Ron Hardin said his family has adopted. I can't speak for him but I do recall that discussion in prior posts.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:26 PM
Yea, it did get ridiculous. I had to respond to some stupid things with some stupid things. MIne very well may have been stuipder but it is very stupid, maybe the stupidest to be against abortion in the case of rape. But in the end I got my point across to Mr. Fanger. Ignoring a potential problem doesn't mean it won't rear its ugly head.
I have an adopted brother and sister. I would prefer to adopt a child than to go the biological route. I'm way too young for a kid at this point though anyway. If I had a kid I wouldn't have time to harass Mr. Hadin.
afanger
# afanger
Sunday, September 06, 2009 6:08 PM
haha - stupider.... awesome
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Sunday, September 06, 2009 6:14 PM
I guess comedy isn't my greatest talent.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Sunday, September 06, 2009 6:15 PM
Like RESPECT for women is not yours.
cardsbadabing
# cardsbadabing
Monday, September 07, 2009 9:05 PM
Fred, I pretty much disagree w/ everything you said but am glad you're commenting. Welcome to the show. I wish more people would read and comment. It was awesome to see so many different views during the election along w/ the debates on here, whether I agreed w/ them or not. Most people come to this site for the sports and T&A (me included) but it's nice to see people actually paying attention to world and issues around them.
Ron Hardin
# Ron Hardin
Monday, September 07, 2009 10:08 PM
Last comment from me on this article. I can transcribe entire pages from the book and still hear the accusations that one page doesn't reflect the entire book. I could then transcribe the entire book, only to hear complaints that one book doesn't reflect Holdren. However, unlike Fred's attempt to paint me as a radical by "quoting" from my website, he deceptively avoided quoting the explicit sentences from that page that says there is no need for violence for a revolution to occur in the US, thanks to the Founding Fathers' foresight. My site also explains that anyone using violence automatically hurts their cause. While Fred deliberately avoided quoting these lines from my site, there are no such equivalent lines in Holdren's work that I ommitted for the same purpose. (I actually wish there were.)

If I'm wrong, read the book for yourself and tell me how I'm wrong. However, it can't honestly be done because the authors were very serious about the seriousness of the looming crisis caused by overpopulation. The final paragraph of Ecoscience reads, "Humanity cannot afford to muddle through the rest of the twentieth century; the risks are too great, and the stakes are too high. This may be the last opportunity to choose our own and our decendants' destiny. Failing to choose or making the wrong choices may lead to catastrophe. But it must never be forgotten that the right choices could lead to a much better world."

This isn't the concluding statement from some disinterested, neutral "study" of a potential problem and the various "solutions" which are stated without recommendation. Holdren and his coauthors were serious about their writings and no personal attacks on me will change that fact. For more proof, hunt down works from Holdren since 1977 to the present and you'll find his commitment to a crusade against overpopulation. (His later works have toned-down language but he never renounces his earlier recommendations and views. Even since his confirmation, he has never explicitily wholey renounced the views and recommendations made in Ecoscience.)

As far as the side debate that the comment section evolved (or devolved depending on your point-of-view), go through the archives for my views on abortion and personal history with adoption. However, I can't seriously take into account the criticism on lack of respect for human life or womens' rights, the same person who said he wants to "gag and rape Sarah Palin." In fact, It's very disturbing that anyone would make that comment in any discussion about any person - liberal or conservative. Even more disturbing is the idea that the person making the statement is chastizing everyone else for his perceptions of their views on various subjects.

Thanks for all of the comments this week and be sure to check out tomorrow's article so the whole fracas can start again.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Monday, September 07, 2009 10:19 PM
"Failing to choose or making the wrong choices may lead to catastrophe"

What choices did they find were the right or wrong ones??
You have to read the book dude. My point in omitting the line from your site was to show you exactly what Beck did. Reading what the comments devolved in I showed the other dude that it is impossible to truely be for or against something unless you understand it. Are you for overpopulation?
Who said gag and rape? I said gag and fuck.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Monday, September 07, 2009 10:22 PM
Did you read Douthat's op-ed in nytimes this weekend?
Ron Hardin
# Ron Hardin
Monday, September 07, 2009 10:31 PM
Take your own advice and get back to me on that. Like I said, I can quote it until I'm blue in the face and I'll still hear the same response.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Monday, September 07, 2009 10:36 PM
When you read the book you can give an honest opinion. The quote says right and wrong choices. I assume you say they are calling the forced abortions etc. the right choices. Well, what are they calling the wrong choices?
So you think Obama will fire a guy for calling republicans assholes but is hanging on to a guy that is for forced abortions?
You present this article as investigative journalism. You investigated nada. Instead you take some spin off Fox. I hope you do something on Mark Loyd based on that stuff they showed the other day. Beck kinda changed directions with the Obama economic policies on the last show didn't he? I wish I could watch everyday
Ron Hardin
# Ron Hardin
Monday, September 07, 2009 10:50 PM
You'd do well to jump off of the Glenn Beck rant because each time you keep bringing him up you make yourself look dumber. Holdren's book has been an issue since he was confirmed. By constantly accusing me of plagiarizing Beck, you're only doing what you accuse me of - drawing an ignorant opinion without a full understanding of the facts. I've never used Beck as a source for anything I've written - in fact, I've opted not to write about many subjects because they have been recently covered by a well-known conservative commentator. (FYI - I don't watch or listen to Glenn Beck or anyone else every day.) The only reason why I discussed the czars now is because their appointments in the White House is something that I do find disturbing.

A word of advice, I have a ton of time on my hands and I don't write about subjects I haven't looked into rather deeply. Accusing me of hearing an opinion of someone else one day and repeating it the next is one accusation that truly doesn't fly concerning my writings. However, informed opinion or rational thought doesn't seem to be your strength. Obfuscating, insulting, slandering, and avoiding the issues seems to be your area of expertise.
FredNorris
# FredNorris
Monday, September 07, 2009 11:16 PM
Dude who in the hell did I slander? Where did I give my opinion? Other than my opinion on women's right I don't think I have. I'm not giving my opinion on shit. I'm pointing out the fact that you are coming to a drastic conclusion on a book you have not read. It just so happens Glenn Beck offered the same information just a couple weeks ago. And now you have the largest comments section in the history of insidestl.

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